FILM

Robin Askew goes to extremes with film director and all-round Establishment-baiter John Waters.

Dubbed 'The Pope of Trash' by William S. Burroughs, film director John Waters is Baltimore's most famous son. His notoriety was sealed with 1972's 'Pink Flamingos', in which burly drag queen Divine wolfed down some freshly minted doggy poo. Waters went on to direct another nine films, including 'Hairspray', which was subsequently turned into a hugely popular mainstream musical. On May 27, he visits Bristol for the first time to talk about his new book, 'Role Models', for the Festival of Ideas.

'Role Models' has had some disapproving reviews in this country.

I read one. But mostly they were good. I know the one you're talking about. But you know what: only an amateur answers your critics. I built a career on bad reviews. I read the bad ones once, the good ones twice, and then I put them all away and never look at them again. 

Does it still excite you when reviewers regard you sniffily from the moral high ground?

I actually believe that the book is moral. And I do believe that my message has always been, 'Don’t judge other people' and 'Mind your own business'. I think that's my politics. Which I think is spiritual. [Laughs] I believe in the basic goodness of people.

You devote a chapter to Leslie Van Houten [former Manson family member, serving a life sentence for murder], which is what seems to have attracted the critics' ire.

That chapter for me is the best you can do for your friend. When your friend's in jail, everybody has to write a letter to the Parole Board. That's my letter to the Parole Board. I'm proud of that chapter, actually. In America, I don't think that chapter got a bad review anywhere. Certainly, there were comments against it when it originally came out on the Huffington Post. And there were outraged comments. But to me, a comment that's unsigned is snark. That doesn’t count for me. I think you've got to sign your name. Some of them were so mean they were funny. I mean, one said: "I hope that she kills him and then they can turn it into a musical'. If they're thinking I'm morally wrong, I don't know what those comments might say.

Hey – welcome to the internet!

Yeah. That's what I mean. When I was young, you wrote a letter to the editor and you had to sign your name and the magazine called and checked that it was really you. I'll listen to somebody that has the nerve to stand up for what they write. But snark to me is just, you know, it's not real to me. I mean, I read it. I look at it sometimes. But I'm proud of the chapter. She has told me she can feel a great difference even in the visiting room because of that chapter. In Los Angeles, that book was on the bestseller list for many weeks. So she has thanked me for writing it. Her family was very pleased because – let's face it – not many people have said nice things about her, ever.

I interviewed Alice Cooper a while back and he seemed rather despondent about the fact that it's impossible to shock anyone any more. Is that a view you share, or are there fresh disgusting avenues to be explored?

No, I haven't tried to shock anybody really. With 'Pink Flamingos', I know what you mean. But I tried to surprise people, and that's a little different from shocking. Today, I'm a little weary of people trying to shock me in movies, although I think Gaspar Noe does it very well. I think Johnny Knoxville shocks you in a great way. There are movies that still shock me because they're so transgressive. I like that kind of shock. But it's easy to shock. If Divine hadn't eaten dogshit, Johnny Knoxville would have. Jackass is done in the same spirit. So I'm never just trying to shock people. I'm trying to make you laugh at something maybe you never laughed at before, and you may be shocked or surprised at your ability to be able to laugh at something. Shock's too easy. Shock with wit is what I kinda like. 'Shock Value' was the name of one of my books. So certainly it was a term that I was taught in English class at school. I paid attention that day. "Every once in a while you say something really outrageous to get people's attention." I guess I turned that into an early career. 

Was there a big artistic scene in Baltimore in the 60s? I like to imagine you sitting in a literary salon with Barry Levinson, David Hasselhoff and Mama Cass.

No. It's very funny. I finally met, and am friends now, with Barry Levinson. But we never knew each other when we were growing up. The first time we actually met, we did an interview together for Baltimore magazine. We grew up roughly ten miles away from each other. I had never met a Jew until I graduated from high school. And he told me he never knew everybody in the world wasn't Jewish until he graduated from high school. We both went downtown, we both went to the Gayety burlesque on the block, and we both made movies about extreme parts of Baltimore. David Hasselhof ended up being in 'A Dirty Shame'. And he was a good sport about it. So none of us knew each other when we were young, but we all do know each other now. I'm very fond of the work of all those people. David Simon especially, who did 'The Wire' and all those great shows. We all respect each other's work and it's all about the extremes of Baltimore. That's what always interests a writer. Who wants to write about the gentrification of the harbour? When I met the governor, he was always very touchy about 'The Wire'. I said, "Not everybody likes tall ships. I hate the sight of a tall ship!" 

 Oh, you'll love Bristol, then. We have a great maritime heritage and lots of gentrification of the docks.

This is where I get stoned in Bristol! I'm not against you having the freedom to like a tall ship. I just liked the harbour better when it was rats and sailors and hookers and mean lesbians.

You had a brief and rather splendid cameo as a flasher in the film version of the' Hairspray' musical. What did you make of the film itself?

I very much liked it, and I'll tell you why. For it to work every time, it has to be completely reinvented. The musical reinvented my movie and the Hollywood movie was a big, broad, big-budgeted movie that reinvented it again. With both 'Rent' and 'The Producers', they didn't change them for the movies and they were not successful. And you know, I thought it was a pretty good idea: a fat girl fighting for integration. But I heard about a version recently – and this is really transgressive: a black, skinny girl played Tracy. That must be really confusing for the plot. But I'm all for it. I think it's really a great idea.

Back in the 60s, you were a long-haired pot smoker. Did you ever consider yourself to be a hippy?

No, I was a yippie. Yippies followed Abbie Hoffman and went to riots. They were left-wing people who humiliated their enemies through humour, really. That's what I identified with at the time. We made fun of hippies. And my movies made fun of hippies. Divine was a creation to scare hippies. But that's who my audience was, certainly. My audience was angry hippies, who later became punks but there was no word for it. They were stagnating with peace and love! I lived in this commune once in San Francisco and next door they were so holier-than-thou about being vegetarian that we used to dump raw meat on their steps.

Your last film, the sex addiction comedy 'A Dirty Shame', got the kiss-of-commercial-death NC-17 certificate in the US, which is reserved for pornography.

I was shocked. I fought it and I lost. I think it was unfairly rated. When I asked them what I could cut, they said: "We stopped taking notes." Which was a chilling comment. But it plays on TV now, which is amazing to me. I'm always amazed when one film does better than another. To me, you could watch any of my movies and they're all kind of the same. Some are maybe a little more easy to swallow. But I think adults shouldn't have been let in to 'A Dirty Shame'. It was so juvenile about sex that it should have been: adults can come only if they're accompanied by a young person. You don't have the equivalent of an NC-17 in England. Although I remember your censor board - and 'Pink Flamingos' is still technically illegal, two scenes in it - they said to me: "We do not know how to deal with intentional bad taste." Which I thought was very honest. But scarier, because liberal censors are really hard to fight. Stupid censors are easy to fight. You put their comments in the ads.

There's also a cultural thing going on here, isn't there? Americans are completely hung up about sex, whereas the British tend to be shocked at the amount of violence in Hollywood films marketed at children.

Absolutely. And you're closer to correct. Although I've never seen even the most hideously violent movie and wondered if those people were really hurt. I think the stupidest person knows it's fake. I've seen violent movies all my life and I've never been in a fist fight, so it didn't affect me. Maybe I'd be in fights if I thought I could win.

So why haven't you made a film since 'A Dirty Shame'? Is it more difficult to get funding?

I don't think it's just me. I don't know anyone that's making moderately priced independent films in America. Independent films have to cost under $1 million. Hollywood movies have to cost $100m. The marketplace has radically changed. I've got a whole new movie called 'Fruitcake'. There used to be 20 companies I could go to. It's not like that any more. I think I'll get it made, but I've also written a book and have 500 others things going on. I can tell a story in a lot of different ways.

Can't you just call up your friend Johnny Depp and ask him to send you a few million dollars?

[Suddenly serious] No, I would never do that. In the old days I had to do that. All the way up to ‘Polyester’, I raised money for all those movies. And every single person I borrowed money from got it back with interest. And I still send people cheques.

What's your take on gay movie stars in Hollywood. Should they come out of the closet and stop living a lie?

Is it living a lie if you don't say anything? To me, it's none of my business. I don't care what other people's sexuality is. I think the bravest person is a gay person who plays a gay part. That almost never happens. Straight people love to play a gay part, and Hollywood's comfortable with that. But they never give a gay part to a gay person. I'm not going to judge what people do in their personal life. One of them that everybody thinks is gay, I think isn't. So don't be so sure you're right! I'm for the right to come in. Gay people aren't. When Greg Araki had a girlfriend for a while, the gay community turned against him. I said, "What do you mean? If we're encouraging people to come out, can't they come in?" I wish some gay people would go back in. They're embarrassing!

Did your appearance on 'The Simpsons' bring you a new audience?

Yeah, children come over to me in airports and that's how they know me. When I'm on subways in New York, the, let's just say, lower echelons of society know me from the Chucky movies. I like to cover audiences at both ends.

So which are your scariest fans?

None of them are scary. I have really good fans. They give me nice presents. The only ones who grate on you a little are the ones who will only speak to you in lines from the movies. That gets old in about five minutes. But I don't have any problems. These are my customers. Why would I ever be mean to them? Then I'd have to go get a job! [Laughs]

I understand there's been a John Waters Day and even a John Waters Week in Baltimore.

No, they had that once. It's not every year. People think that, though. They always call me on that day. But it's not an annual thing where I get to give out hairdos to the poor.

That's a shame. I was wondering how you'd like people to celebrate John Waters Day.

Maybe get their hair done twice! [laughs]

Which brings me to the subject of your trademark moustache. How high-maintenance is it, and do you have any tips for anyone attempting to cultivate one?

I could do it blindfold. It's not high-maintenance. You can do it in three seconds. You just shave from the top, use scissors from the bottom and draw it in once in a while. It's pretty easy. Anybody could do it. When I met Justin Bieber, I gave him my eyebrow pencil and he drew it on.

You play a character called the Groom Reaper on a show called 'Till Death Do Us Part' on Court TV in the US, which sounds fascinating. I don't believe it was ever shown over here, so what can you tell me about it?

Yes it did. But it was called something different. I'm not sure how successful it was. There was only one season. Every week it was based – and I use that word loosely – on a true crime where either the bride or the groom murdered one another. It always starts off at the wedding. I'm the Groom Reaper and I talk to the audience. That was the conceit of it. The same people who know me from Chucky know me from that.

You've cast plenty of ex-convicts in your films. What is it that draws you to these criminals?

Well, what do you mean ex-convicts? You mean Patricia Hearst? Well, she is not only an ex-convict, she's a gifted comedienne and a survivor. But yes, Patricia is a very good friend of mine. Who wants to be a famous kidnap victim? Talk about a boring career: to be a victim. She never signed an autograph until she made a movie with me. Johnny Depp was a teen idol. He didn't want to be that any more. Traci Lords had just escaped from porn. She didn't want to do that any more. They all came and played the same thing they were trying to shed. And if you make fun of it, people can't use it against you.

Does a week ever go by when you're not asked about Divine and the dogshit?

Divine gets mentioned a lot. I would say people mention his name somehow once a week. The dogshit, no. Because there's not an unexploited second of that story. There's no new way to tell it. And I have made about 15 movies since then.

But you're so associated with this iconic scene in trash cinema that I was wondering whether you might be at all worried that your obituary will be headlined: 'Dogshit Man Dies'

Even if I discover the cure for cancer tomorrow, that would be ahead of it in the obituary. No, look, I figure when you die people remember one thing you did. If, in 100 years, that's still the one thing people remember, that's OK. Hey – they remembered something! And it was a good idea. I never thought I would still be talking about it 40 years on. But I'm happy to talk about it. I wasn't a sadist. It was one take. It was outside of comedy. It was reality TV before it happened.

Are you at all concerned that you're being co-opted and assimilated and are no longer an outsider?

Why would I worry about that? It would be the ultimate irony, wouldn't it? My dreams came true. Everything I every wanted to happen to me as a kid has already happened, and I'm very thankful for that. Being an insider is more perverse now. Isn't it? Whoever says they're an insider? No one does. I proudly do. I can't say I'm an outsider now. I live in four cities. I have a very nice life.

JOHN WATERS: THE ROLE MODELS IN MY LIFE WAS AT WATERSHED, BRISTOL, FRI 27 MAY. FOR INFO ABOUT ONGOING FESTIVAL OF IDEAS EVENTS SEE WWW.IDEASFESTIVAL.CO.UK

Copyright Robin Askew 2011